Next-Level Approaches to Amplify Your Multifamily Fortune with Joe Sullivan

Speaker 1: 0:02

Multi-family. I landed on that. The story is good too, but really landed on that because of scalability, resiliency too, if you’re in the right market. There’s such a demand for good, clean, safe places to live. It’s one of the basic human needs.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Welcome to the Passive Income Brothers podcast.

Speaker 3: 0:19

Here we take the fear out of real estate investing, using real life stories of everyday successful investors. Let’s go Welcome to another episode of the Passive Income Brothers podcast. My name is Tim Wines and today I’m joined by two rock stars, one of which being my brother, Greg. How you doing today, buddy?

Speaker 2: 0:34

Tim again being called a rock star just really, really sets my Wednesday morning off.

Speaker 3: 0:40

Well, that’s what we have to do. Sometimes we’ve got to psych ourselves up and hit the day running and I think today you, the listener, are gonna get a lot of value from our guests. Because if you’re into real estate, if you’re into family, if you’re into personal growth and development and masterminds and really going on the journey of doing one thing, making the pivot and going to the other, you’re gonna get a lot of value from today’s episode. For, without further ado, I’d love to introduce you to Joe Sullivan. How you doing today, Joe.

Speaker 1: 1:09

That’s not boys. Tim, Greg, Good to see you guys. It’s been a while since we’ve talked, but it’s always good to reconnect with old friends.

Speaker 3: 1:17

That’s it. So for the listener, I just wanna provide some color and background, for Joe and I have been and Greg have been friends for I don’t know going on three or so years, because we were all part of the same education platform Jake and Gino, that we talked about on the show where we learned about multifamily. We learned how to do the underwriting, the property management, buying a property, managing it and putting the right debt on it and all that stuff, and by that we surrounded ourselves with like-minded folks who were all rowing in the same direction. Right, we all had different and varied backgrounds, we all came from different parts of the country, we all were at different stages of our journey, but then, as a piece of that, we got dropped into a mastermind with just a few folks, I think, Joe. What was it? Four or five people.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Yeah, they’re fine with us.

Speaker 3: 2:07

And up until recently we still met right. Three years is a long time. I would actually say Joe was more like two or so years that we really kind of met. But it was through the pandemic right, it was through the uncertainty we were all kind of growing together. I was doing capital raising, Joe was doing more well, he does everything, and we were bringing those best practices to each other. We were bringing some of that uncertainty hey, how are you doing this, how are you doing that, and that is so powerful. But that’s how we got to meet Joe and his lovely wife. So, Joe, could you kind of fill in some of the gaps that I left out about your background, kind of how you got into this space and we’ll take it from there.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Yeah, awesome, definitely. I started investing in real estate about five years ago and for a couple of years trying to do it all on my own. I started small, with like duplexes. I was really trying to do it as like alternative source of income because I had a job and just wanted some passive income, and then fast forward a couple of years later, realized I was doing everything wrong. Heck, I was even mowing the lawn. I have a scar on my thumb from the carburetor. One day when I was mowing the lawn and I remember driving home sweating my tail off of my truck, bleeding on my hand, thinking what am I doing here? So that was kind of like the catalyst for me to dig deeper and dive deeper and figure out what I wanted to do with real estate. And I established an asset class that I wanted to invest in. I just picked one and went with it. So I picked multi-family and really overeducated and over consumed podcasts like free education really, for like a half a year and then finally decided I wanted to go deeper and invest in educational platforms. So that’s when I joined Jake and Gino. Like Tim said, I think we joined maybe the same month or even week. Really, it’s kind of wild and I joined that I guess it’d be like three years, three and a half years ago and got in the right group around the right people. I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to leave my W2 and since then so it was about two years ago I left my W2, I’m now doing this full-time owner and operator of multi-family. It’s been an amazing ride. Frankly, I’m just a different person than I was then. You had to become a different person to do this, so there’s a lot more in between there, but that’s the kind of the cliff notes of how I got here.

Speaker 2: 4:16

Yeah, that’s a good one. Joe is from the Kansas city area and, other than him being a chief’s fan, he’s a great, great guy. My wife, of course, is a Denver Bronco fan. She’s from Denver. Those things aside, joe is pretty modest in the way he kind of speaks about his journey into multi-family, mostly because I would describe Joe as pretty relentless when it comes to finding deals, off-market deals, building relationships with brokers and sellers, and, joe, I think, when it comes to active participation in real estate. You kind of wrote the book on how to go from zero to 60, really, really fast. How do you approach finding deals in the multi-family arena and how do you think you’re different from someone else that does it? Because you’ve had so much success finding deals in the Kansas city market?

Speaker 1: 5:07

Yeah, I don’t think I’m any different than anybody else. Anybody can do it. I just take really massive, focused action, just like I think Alex or Mosey calls it violent action. I just lean in really hard. When I started, I had a coach and I was trying to do everything and he shout out to Darren Light and he reigned me in and said what are you doing? Why are you capital raising and why are you setting up a website and all these things? He’s like you need to find deals because I had found one that was really good. And he’s like you just need to do that again and don’t do anything else. Don’t worry about anything else. You’re in the right community, find the right partners and the rest kind of falls into place. And it’s more complex than that. But the point is, just what are they calling it? Mild, deep and an inch wide on the one thing that you’re, I guess, if you would call it your superpower.

Speaker 3: 5:55

Dude, I love that. And the zone of genius right, Focused, massive, focused action. It was what Joe just said. And the zone of genius and it’s hard and it took a coach to kind of point that out because when we’re getting started as investors in real estate or as an entrepreneur, if you’re kind of combining the two at least for me, I’ve had multiple coaches with multiple masterminds and it’s taking all of that just to get my head screwed on right because you want the website and then all of a sudden you’re like well, we got to do marketing and what does that mean? Like retargeting ads and metadata and podcasts and social media, and then, by the way, you still have to have your conversations with investor and write newsletters and looking for deals and all this stuff. Right, I mean there’s no shortage of tasks to be done if you’re going to do it all by yourself. And I think that was one of the defining wins of joining a program like Jake and Gina was to have the coaching, have the mastermind, have the support, have the other people all in the program, Because it’s kind of selective, the program not just anybody can join, right, and you can find some of that right. So Joe is great at acquisitions, and then you find somebody else, like maybe us right, who have become good at capital raising, and they have somebody else who’s good at boots in the ground, property and asset management, and you have somebody else that’s great at underwriting and somebody else who’s great at building relationships with capital markets and debt products and stuff like that and you come together and you can really stick to your zone right, and when you do that, Joe is a great example. When you stick to your zone of genius, you can start taking down some of these deals. What I also learned about Joe’s little story there that he just so eloquently glossed over was he was a W2 guy with Joe. How many kids you have? You have four.

Speaker 1: 7:39

Four girls yep.

Speaker 3: 7:40

Four girls, right, so W2 with four girls looking for some alternative income sources. You put it, joe. Then you got into real estate, you started mowing the lawns, you started doing all the things. And this is kind of the progression that we see from a lot of investors. Right, they want to get into real estate, but they want to do it. They want to mow the lawn, they want to shovel the snow, until they say, man, this is like another job, right? Like how do I get into this where I’m not doing everything? And you got to extricate yourself out of that role. Put somebody else whose zone of genius is better. Somebody’s going to be better than you, joe, at mowing the lawn. I guarantee it now that you’re bleeding on the way home in your truck. And then two short years later, he is leaving his W2 job and now he’s an owner operator of Joe how many units now? I lost count.

Speaker 1: 8:26

Just over 1,400.

Speaker 3: 8:28

An owner operator of 1,400 units in a great cashflow market of Kansas City. I mean, I want everybody to right now pull your car over, get that notebook out, sharpen that pencil, because Joe just basically taught us that this is possible, right, this is possible with massive, focused action. So, joe, take us through some of that, like how you kind of transitioned with the education piece behind you and the masterminds of the coaching. What was it like to become a different person? What was it like to become the owner operator, going from maybe some duplexes into multifamily?

Speaker 1: 9:06

Yeah, like the difference between working in the business and on the business. It was hard, a big identity shift, but you didn’t really have a choice. If you want to scale and do bigger deals and really grow, you have to step out of the business and work on the business, and really it was just by like you said, tim. It was by surrounding yourself with people who had skills that you didn’t have or were weak spots, and working together to help each other go to the next level.

Speaker 3: 9:34

And Joe just expand upon why multifamily, like when you go from duplex to multifamily. What was it about the duplex that brought you in? And then what made you decide that multifamily commercial real estate was the way to go? Because a lot of our listeners they may have a single family rental or a condo or a duplex and for me at least, when I heard a commercial real estate which is really multifamily, defined as five units or more, right One to four units is considered residential. They qualify for the 30-year fixed mortgages. Your conventional financing, if you will, five units and above, is the commercial side and that’s commercial financing. It’s a different ballgame on how to value those properties. But when I first heard about that I was scared. Right Underwriting spreadsheets, net operating income loss to lease above the line, below the line, I was like man, this sounds like it’s a Wall Street phenomena and I don’t know if that Tim DeFyreman and Tim DeIer are winners can handle that. So what brought you to the duplexes at first and what made you want to switch to that asset class?

Speaker 1: 10:31

I think by logic when I bought duplexes was just that if one side was in pain their renter there’s a month where they were as vacant, then the other side could cover the mortgage. So that was really the logic. It was really that simple at the time with the duplexes and it happened a handful of times. So it made sense. But you really couldn’t really cash flow. Well, you have one month and you’re one surprise capital expenditure and your cash flow is dead for a quarter. So multifamily I landed on that. It was actually between that and storage. I mean, I think storage is good too, but really landed on that because of scalability, resiliency too. If you’re in the right market, there’s such a demand for good, clean, safe places to live. It’s one of the basic human needs, right? Somebody, everyone needs somewhere to live. So and I studied millionaires invested in and owned and I forgot what percentage, but it’s over 90% of the wealthy people in the world own some form of real estate and kept landing on multifamily and I would read about somebody. Most of them had some type of multi-family.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Yeah, the asset classes has performed through thick and thin through the decades, that’s for sure. Joe, when you go through the identity shift that you went through from W2 worker to a multi-family guru, if you will it’s funny that three years ago I wonder if you thought you’d be on a podcast right now You’ve been on so many podcasts but you’d be on a podcast because of your multi-family knowledge. It’s so funny that shift To sit here now. It was a different market when you got into multi-family back in 2020, 2021. Right now there’s a little bit of uncertainty in all of commercial real estate really, and in the housing market in general. But how do you think about multi-family right now and what are the opportunities out there as we’re in the I guess we’re in the third quarter of 2023?

Speaker 1: 12:27

Yeah, I think it’s still a great asset class. I think it’s phenomenal. Most of my deals are outperforming projections not all, but most and there’s still a massive amount of demand for again good, clean, safe places to live in my markets at least. The occupancy in the market is 95% or higher in some cases, depending on what pockets you’re in and rent growth it’s still trending up, so in the Midwest. So we don’t get the real big peaks like some of the other markets, but it’s pretty steady, you know it’s. We’re around 5% rent growth year over year. That hasn’t changed since. I’ve been doing this for the last five years. So I love the consistency. It’s predictable for me and there’s always been a demand.

Speaker 3: 13:12

Hey Joe, can you just remind listeners what markets are you targeting? Where’s the majority of the 1,400 units that you are now the owner-operator of?

Speaker 1: 13:22

Yeah, kansas and Missouri, mostly Kansas City like the Kansas City MSA, but I do own some in Wichita, kansas, and then Springfield, missouri.

Speaker 3: 13:31

So I want listeners to really hone in on that, because Greg and I, the route that we took, we’ve done a lot in Phoenix and Austin, texas and Houston and Florida and Tennessee and we’ve done I don’t know maybe about 1,000 units in the Midwest, mostly in Michigan and Ohio. And when we talk to investors and we talk to operators, one of the things we always hear about the Midwest is steady cash flow, like no peaks, no valleys, just kind of steady, eddy, consistent, predictable cash flow, and there’s really something to be said for that. Versus like at Phoenix, like we got heavily involved in Phoenix, right, there was a ton of migration, not a lot of supply. We tried to capitalize on that and we are and we’re still in the process of that. But what I love about Joe kind of in the Kansas City market, is that, like this doesn’t have to be rocket science, right, it doesn’t have to be the shiny red objects that’s kind of always flashing at you. People need a place to live, right, they need a place to food, clothing and apartments is what our mentor, geno Barrow, talks about all the time right, and we’re not reinventing the wheel. Like Joe didn’t invent real estate, greg or I didn’t invent capital raising or commercial real estate either. But there’s three things that we learned about, joe through the Jake and Geno program and I think it’s really relevant maybe to drive home to the listeners or people who are aspiring to get into this space. And it’s really what they talk about buying a property right to buy right, manage right and finance right. Joe, can you take us through what are those three things kind of mean to you and how do you apply that to your business?

Speaker 1: 15:05

Yeah, that’s great, it’s a really simple framework. But it’s man, it’s so true. If you mess one of them up then you’d be in trouble. So start to the buy right. Like you said, for me that’s typically trying to source deals off market, either through a broker or I do have some direct to seller campaigns. Had good success with those deals off market and direct to seller. And for me buy right is I frankly, just look at cash flow first, so that’s the most important thing. If it hits my you know our cash on cash requirements in year one, then that’s a high likelihood it’s gonna hit the rest of the return metrics. So cash flow is the first one we always look at. Don’t pay as close attention to cap rates and things like that because it can be easily manipulated. So really just looking for cash flow and so that’s a buy right. Finance right, that’s a really important one. I’ve got so obviously use, like the non-recourse loans. So life insurance or agency, which is Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae, those are great loans but not all deals pencil with them, not all deals work for them. So have some local and regional banks that I work with very closely If we’ve got really good relationship with them to the point where I’ve done with one bank. I’ve done a half a dozen deals with them and they’re eager to do more and for the most part I’d say we probably get some pretty good terms just because of the relationship. So the relationships have been massive with the lenders. It’s gone a long way, even with some of the agency debt we’ve gotten. Your track record and experience in a relationship with a broker goes a long way to getting a little bit higher leverage here or maybe fight for you to a credit on your interest rate. But yeah, it definitely goes a long way. And manage right that’s not necessarily just property management, because obviously that’s critical, but you have to be able to the asset and the manager. So even if you self manage or third party, you have to have somebody watching over the asset from kind of, I guess, like an airplane view. You have to have somebody keep an eye on making sure you’re executing the business plan.

Speaker 3: 17:06

So there was a lot there, joe. Like when we talk about buy-right, you talk about direct-to-sell campaigns and really kind of cold-calling folks and then establishing relationships in that market. I think that’s so huge and it’s overlooked by a lot of people, especially, like being a New Yorker. I think sometimes New Yorkers get a bad rap, joe, I don’t know, I’ve heard about some of that, but it might be a little harder for me to start calling people in Kansas City because I don’t have Joe’s really cool accent and maybe I talk a little fast and stuff. But start where you are right. If where you are is in a market that has a need for a clean, safe, affordable housing and you can do a better job than the guy that’s already doing it. Like, start making those calls right. There’s plenty of software out there real estate software programs to find out who owns properties, what LLCs there are, how to find the numbers. There’s a ton on that and we can do a deep dive into that on another podcast. But really that has been your key to success, I think, joe right, just from following your journey. The other thing is Joe said cap rates can be manipulated and for the one-on-one crowd who’s listening to this podcast. A cap rate in multifamily or commercial real estate is really defined as if you paid cash all cash for a property, what would the cash on cash yield be right, Without levering by using debt? Right? And it fluctuates, right? So the higher the cap rate is, the lower the price of the property or the asset might be, and when cap rates compress or they go down, then the price or the value of the property goes up. So it’s an inverse relationship and people tend to pay very close attention to that in underwriting, especially in the more primary markets I’d say, as Joe’s saying, in a maybe more tertiary market of Springfield, missouri or Kansas City. Right, it’s all about cash flow and it’s really kind of dialing in what’s your income, what’s your expected income, what’s the loss to lease right, and what are my expenses, and really dialing in on what the expenses are to see what your cash on cash return may look like. Then the whole financing piece, joe, I think that could be a very, very complicated topic. And what I loved is you mentioned something called non-recourse loans and for the listeners who aren’t familiar with that, non-recourse just simply means that the LLC that buys the property, they’re the only people who are liable for that loan, right? Not Joe Sullivan, not his wife, not anybody else who’s a general partner of that deal. It’s non-recourse to the LLC or the entity that buys that property. And what you can do with those local and regional banks, joe, you can correct me if I’m wrong here, but you can get, like, maybe, five or 10 year loan with a 20 year or 25 year amortization 30, I guess, if you have a really strong relationship with them. And then once you improve the property enough, say in one or two or three years, and you increase the value by driving net operating income, then you can refinance, whether it’s cash out or cash neutral and you really don’t want to do a cash in refive. But if you can do a cash out or a cash neutral refi into what’s called agency debt Fannie and Freddie, agency debt or life insurance companies now you can get, say, a seven or 10 year loan at a 30 or a 35 year amortization which can really increase your cash flow, and that’s the gold standard of loans. Joe, how did I do explaining some of that?

Speaker 1: 20:18

That was great. That’s the model for the smaller properties we buy is by them, with local community bank. Like you said, typically it’s 25 year amortization, up to two years of interest only, and you’re trying to stabilize the asset and then refinance it and pull some equity out and then, like you said, the longer amortization on the agency debt of 30 years. You typically will cash flow similarly because the previous debt was on 25 year amortization. So it’s a really beautiful process and you get the non-recourse so they can’t come over after your house. Something goes so wrong.

Speaker 3: 20:53

And just like Gino talks about, when you do that refi and then you roll into the next property. You don’t go out and take that refi proceeds and buy a Lamborghini or BMW or whatever. You take that and you roll it into the next property. Now you’re playing with house money and I’m assuming, joe, that’s a little bit of how you got that snowball going. And finally, the third piece is managed right. And this is a critical piece because everybody wants to go on social media and say, hey, we’re closing on 82 units, on 46 units, on 498 units, whatever it might be. I’d have a picture and you and your team around the sign, like look at us. But then that’s just where the journey begins. The managing piece is so critical, like Joe said, because that’s where the business plan can fall apart if you’re not implementing it. And with that comes systems, processes and documentation. So if you’re having a third party manager, if I’m in New York and I’m trying to manage something in Kansas City with a third party property manager, well, I want to have a system. I want to have which means a weekly or I would say bi-weekly, but really a weekly call. You got to have constant communication and there should be some metrics, right? How many pieces of traffic came in? What are we doing for marketing? How many service tickets came in and they were handled within 24 to 48 or 72 hours? And if not, why not? Right? And it’s really just drilling down and drilling down and managing that asset and keeping people accountable, and that’s how you can manage something correctly to implement the business plan. So, joe, how did I do on the manager, right?

Speaker 1: 22:21

Yeah, man for sure. Yeah, the systems and processes. You’re talking like asset management, which is critical, especially in the larger assets. Like you, have to execute the plan. It’s great to close, but you said that’s just the start and that’s the hard part is executing.

Speaker 2: 22:36

Yeah, I mean, the execution is key in everything you do, whether it’s sourcing deals or actually executing a business plan. Joe, you’ve come a long way from the duplexes five and six years ago and scaled your portfolio of 1400 units, which is unbelievable. When you take a look back over your real estate career, who influenced you the most and who really influenced your thinking to seek change, to get into real estate?

Speaker 1: 23:03

That’s a good question. The person who influenced me the most once I started was Gino. For sure, I consider him a mentor.

Speaker 2: 23:11

And that’s Gino Barbro Barbro. Yeah, taken Gino, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the G Daddy, yeah, g Daddy, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:17

We actually went to Ireland with him and my wife and I with him and his wife and some other couples in the community, which was pretty cool. It’s great to be around people like him who are he’s where I want to be, so he’s the most influential one I got in. Previous to that, I think it was more self-motivations. I went through like this with my wife, just like, okay, what’s the worst case scenario if you leave your W2? I went through this whole process and at the end of the day, it really wasn’t that bad. It was like, if you leave your W2 and you fail, what’s the worst thing that could happen? And so we went through it and it’s basically. It’s like, well, we’d be moving in with family, it’d be selling our house and you go back and find another job, and I was like I’ve already been there before because I’ve already lived with a family. I was younger, so it’s really not that bad when you look at it that way. I didn’t want to wake up someday regretting that I didn’t try something. I didn’t want to tell my kids like I didn’t try this. I just. That was something I had to think long and hard about. Was I’m going to try this thing? I’m going to go all in, and if I fail then I’ll just go back to doing what I did before. But at that point you’re betting on yourself, and if you’re not going to bet on yourself, then who are you going to bet on?

Speaker 3: 24:25

Joe, I love that and there’s a quote by Brandon Brichard that I love and it says if you leave your growth to randomness, you’ll always live in mediocrity. And I love how you have become a student of personal growth and development, hanging with guys like Gino and other folks in our community. But you’ve also had the opportunity to kind of spread your wings and join some masterminds and have some coaching, right. So can you just talk about the value of that growth process, of becoming the person that you want to be by dedicating yourself to a process of joining like-minded folks, coming out of your comfort zone, joining masterminds, so the value that you’ve kind of gotten from that.

Speaker 1: 25:02

Yeah, no, it’s been massive. It’s actually. I used to think that it was a cost. That’s how I viewed masterminds and coaching programs, like oh, that’s going to cost me X amount of dollars. But now I really do believe it’s an investment. Each one of them have helped me grow exponentially. It’s actually kind of amazing if you like look back in hindsight of where you were when you started the specific mastermind and how you’ve grown. Each one’s been a little different. For me, though, like so Jake and Gino is a lot of education and being around the right people. There’s a couple others and I’m in that we talk more about like health and like how to be a good father, a good husband, those kind of things. So it’s not just about being expert and multifamily. It’s about having a different life. So I really do believe to like to go to the next step, you do have to become a different person. You have to let go of some of the things that you did in the past good and or bad, like it could be things that you did really well, but you can’t do those things. To be the next level person.

Speaker 2: 25:57

Well, joe, tim and I were really excited when you agreed to come on the podcast, really happy to have you, and we definitely agree that the massive growth that has taken place since that first day we met you in Knoxville, tennessee we sat outside at that Starbucks and it was the first time we met in person the growth trajectory has just been off the charts. So we’re so happy that you were on the podcast, but we’re so happy to know you and be a part of your world. So, joe, we do need to be mindful of time. So let us transition to the three questions or thoughts we love you to respond to. And the first kind of thought we have is you deal a lot with investors and you raise money and those sort of things for your own deals. And what do you say when you come across a person that says investing in real estate is too risky?

Speaker 1: 26:46

Well, first of all, I don’t try to convince anybody, because the deals that we do are opportunities for people, so I don’t want anybody in one of my deals. If they have any hesitation at all, so I would tell them, I would give them the facts about real estate, but never try to pressure anybody into doing it. It wouldn’t be a good fit for me so. But I would tell them to get educated and I give them some facts about resiliency and real estate compared to the stock market, things like that, the tax benefits, and then they can do their own research. But definitely don’t want people in a dealer or working with you if they’re not bought in beforehand.

Speaker 3: 27:21

I love that because for us, Greg, when I got myself educated, I wanted to scream from the mountaintops, I want to convert everybody, until I realized it was akin to emptying the ocean of water. It just wasn’t going to happen. So I definitely love that, Joe. The second question comes from a de facto mentor of ours, Robert Kiyosaki. He can say something like this, and it can turn some people off if they don’t know what he’s really talking about Right now. He says savers are losers and debtors are winners. What does that mean to you?

Speaker 1: 27:52

I love that. It’s a very polarizing comment. Yeah, sturrets, yeah. So to me what that means is putting your money and checking their savings account and earning I don’t know what they yield under 1% you’re losing because inflation is higher than whatever that yield is. So inflation well, the latest inflation said 3%, but yeah, 3% is obviously higher than 1%. So you know there’s a 2% big there that you’re losing, according to him. So, and debtors are winners because if you can leverage in this case, multifamily or any really asset class, you can leverage the asset that appreciates like they have over the last forever, frankly and you get consistent cash flow, then that leverage will, you will win, and win massively in the longer.

Speaker 2: 28:41

Well, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The last question we have or thought is from Jim Rohn, who’s been very influential, and Tim and I kind of real estate journey, and he said that formal education will make you a living, self education will make you a fortune. Joe, post a trial for this one. What does that mean for you?

Speaker 1: 29:01

Man, that’s cool. I’ve never heard that, but that’s so cool. Yeah, well, to me that means taking action, and sometimes it’s you learn the hard way. So for me, I learned the hard way with my own money, which I invested in the duplexes, and one of them we ended up selling early on because it was a bad deal. It was just not going well, so I got rid of that. And so to me that means take action early and get educated. Don’t go by a thousand units with other people’s money. That’s how I would apply that to my world.

Speaker 3: 29:30

Joe, I love that, and you know what I’m just going to expound upon that being like, joe paid tuition, right? Well, he didn’t pay tuition for credits at a college, but he paid tuition by getting himself in the game buying a duplex, buying a bed duplex and having to get rid of it, self managing and cutting his hand on the lawn mower, paying money for masterminds, paying money to join a multifamily education platform, surrounding himself with other people who are rolling in the same direction. All that is a cost, whether it’s a time cost, a time away from your family or away from your W2 or whatever the case might be. He paid tuition by leaving his W2, by making a pros and cons list and saying what’s the worst thing that can happen, and then taking that massive, focused action that he talked about, and then paying tuition by just jumping in. And if you needed a PhD every time you had to make a decision, you literally wouldn’t make a decision, and I think Joe is just watching and hearing about your journey. It has been inspiring to Greg and I for sure, and we just love to be a part of that. I do have to ask one question, though, joe. This is not usually in our mix Does anything get your blood pressure up? Because you just are just a cool cat, right, and as long as I’ve known you, I’ve never heard you like raise your voice or get super like animated. So what is it that’s going to get you going? Is it the Kansas City Chiefs?

Speaker 1: 30:46

Chiefs or the Kansas J-hawks, yeah, oh, let’s go, let’s go. Yeah, watch the final four game with me, if KU playing, and you’ll see.

Speaker 3: 30:55

Greg, I think we need to road trip. I think we need to road trip down to you.

Speaker 2: 30:59

I hear that, but he’s betting on two great winners there, the Chiefs and Kansas men’s basketball. So the blood pressure probably doesn’t get up that much because it wins so damn much.

Speaker 1: 31:09

That’s a good point. It’s been a good run, yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:12

So, Joe, it has been a pleasure to connect with you. I’m so happy we had a chance to record here and just kind of have you on the past Think I’m Brothers podcast. If people want to learn more about you or something hit and resonated with them and they want to contact you or invest alongside you, what’s the best way for people to connect?

Speaker 1: 31:29

They can email me at Joe at joedtscom. That’s joeydtscom.

Speaker 3: 31:37

And, just so people know, that means direct to seller, joey. Direct to sellercom because he’s basically just perfected that. So, joe at joedtscom, We’ll have that in the show notes. So it has been a pleasure serving you guys for another week of the Passive Income Brothers podcast and we look forward to serving you again next week. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Passive Income Brothers podcast. We would be grateful for your support of our podcast by giving our show a five star rating and review and subscribing to our show on your favorite podcast platform. Don’t forget to take inspired action after listening to this show so that you can start building out your passive income streams. Finally, head on over to citiesidecapcom to connect with us and find out more information about how to get started passively investing in real estate.